NoneOfUrBusiness

Oh shit.

I don’t know how legitimate his jailing was, but he (you’re talking about Imran Khan right?) was removed by a vote of no confidence, which at least on paper is a perfectly democratic affair. According to Wikipedia,

The Armed Forces has historically played an influential role in the country’s politics,[11][12] although it has declined in recent years.

After the resignation of President Pervez Musharraf in 2008, a sharp line has been drawn between the “military establishment” and politics and Pakistan is moving closer to becoming a democracy after general elections in 2013.

They’re not a democracy in any sense of the word, but things seem to be improving compared to the army’s political heyday.

Okay am I the only one who thinks this doesn’t bode well for democracy in the region? Modi will obviously use this as a chance to consolidate power, and the Pakistani army’s political role will likely see a resurgence after years of democratization.

Eh, we’re still in the prelude I think. Think second Sino-Japanese war. When China attacks Taiwan and belligerents all over the world align that’s when it’ll be a proper world war.

Well, afaik, both Hamas and expansionist Israelis each think of a solution where they take over the entire other part, not of one where they equally cohabit in one common nation together.

I don’t think Hamas has been pitching itself as the future rulers of Palestine (they’re not anywhere near that delusional), but either way there’s no reason for us to accept either of those. If the international community gives Israel an ultimatum saying “equal rights for Palestinians now or no weapons” the whole problem will fix itself in a few election cycles as Israel is forced to accept and Palestinians are in no position to refuse the prospect of not being genocided.

Yes, it’s a terrorist organisation

Okay, and? There’s no label that makes everyone you stick it with okay to bomb. According to international law (and common human decency), you have to look at what that person actually does before you can decide whether they’re okay to bomb or not. To repeat myself, no terrorist organization in Kashmir is worse than the Indian government’s reign of terror.

Indian security forces have been implicated in many reports for enforced disappearances of thousands of Kashmiris whereas the security forces deny having their information and/or custody. This is often in association with torture or extrajudicial killing. The extent of male disappearances has been so large that a new term “half-widows” has been created for their wives who end up with no information of their husbands’ whereabouts. Human right activists estimate the number of disappeared to be over eight thousand, last seen in government detention.[64][75][79] The disappeared are believed to be dumped in thousands of mass graves across Kashmir.

-Wikipedia. There’s a reason only Indian-administered Kashmir is the site of a decades-long insurgency.

The Indian army doesn’t tell people to kill Hindus,

Read the article before you make such claims. Because it quite literally does tell people to kill Muslims. There’s a whole subsection in the article titled “mass graves” ffs.

Indian schools don’t tell us to kill Muslims

Here’s my guess: They teach that India has a legitimate claim to Kashmir and Pakistan is infringing on its territory. If that’s the case, then given the shit Indian soldiers get up to in Kashmir separatists would have a case in saying that Indian achools and anti-separatist Hindu temples are sites of indoctrination and that makes attacking them okay. If it’s okay for you, it’s okay for them, because just as you have your terror attacks they have their mass graves and half widows.

I want to note that the war has broad support among the Russian public, so while it might not be Ukraine they’ll attack another one of their neighbors if only Putin is removed. See: Georgia, Chechnya.

But that doesn’t mean I’m going to take pity on Pakistan and denounce how my country is responding to their aggression. Fuck Pakistan.

I argued about the response to the massacre (which, by the way, hasn’t been conclusively linked to Pakistan so there’s no proof of “aggression”) with the other guy so you can just see that. Here I just wanna point out that no matter how accurate or justified the Indian response was, Modi will use this as an opportunity to curtail democracy and consolidate power further. Therefore, cheering on the strikes as “responding to aggression” is playing right into Modi’s hand. If you want to keep what little remains of your democratic rights you have to start pushing back on this now.

What I got from the article was some marginal complicity rather than June 2013 being a full-fledged US-supported coup. The US should’ve taken and should take a harsher stance against the Egyptian military junta, but that’s one thing and the US being implicated in the coup is another.

Why would an ordinary masjid host a well known, widely despised figure like Saeed?

Saeed? You mean Azhar?

If it was civilian infrastructure, why was the man leading the funeral a famous terrorist, and not a local religious cleric?

I have no idea, though I could think of a few reasons (including that the three people who would normally lead such a prayer are all dead).

If you join LeT, you are a terrorist. Doesn’t matter if you just go there to sweep the floors.

Yeah… no. According to Wikipedia,

The group conducts terrorists training camps and humanitarian work. Across Pakistan, the organisation runs 16 Islamic institutions, 135 secondary schools, an ambulance service, mobile clinics, blood banks and seminaries according to the South Asia Terrorism Portal

If everyone working in any of those activities is a terrorist, then by a similar logic all Indian government employees are affiliated with the Indian army and therefore valid military targets, “even if they’re there to sweep the floors”, because the Indian army is by far the biggest terrorist organization in Kashmir. If we reject that logic, then the three men who were killed in the strike are civilians who were affiliated with LeT’s peaceful wing. You can hate “indoctrination” all you want (if that’s indeed what they were doing); that still doesn’t make a building a valid military target. Unless you’d like Kashmiri militants to attack Kashmiri Hindu priests who advocate against separation from India.

The camp was for the purpose of Daura-e-Sufa, Daura-e-Aam and Khas are done elsewhere.

So for religious education with no combat purpose to speak of? That’s militant infrastructure? In that case any Indian schools are valid targets for Kashmir militants, because this logic goes both ways.

If ISIS opened a mosque near you, and you knew it was frequented by famous ISIS members, would you go there every Friday? It’s not just a mosque, it is an LeT mosque that spreads LeT propaganda.

Assuming the government takeover is just for show, which you haven’t provided concrete evidence for beyond speculation. that’s circular reasoning. Also, it’s entirely possible that LeT is condemned in most of Pakistan and still supported in Kashmir, especially since LeT is a lot more than a militant organization. I’d wager the people they aided in the Kashmir earthquake would be perfectly willing to go to their mosque, for example. It seems to me like you’re using excessively simplistic lines of thought to derive the conclusion you want.

Frankly, you’re just dismissing everything as coincidences.

Because everything you just mentioned works just as well as a coincidence as it would if your claim was correct. What you’ve outlined here, if charitably interpreted (or uncharitably depending on how you look at it) warrants a “hmm, maybe we should look into this further”, but doesn’t serve on its own as evidence that anything rocket-worthy was going on in Murikde.

I’m sure they have far better proofs.

Why do you trust the Indian army so much? Have you not considered the possibility that they simply don’t care, given that they’re taking orders from a known fascist?

We can exchange snippets from authors aligning with our views all day without making any progress at all.

I mean I quoted a fact; you quoted an opinion. Notice that as an avowed Zionist and Nakba apologist Benny Morris isn’t an unbiased actor here, so while his statements of fact do mean something as a historian his opinions mean jack shit.

Fact is: there won’t be the necessary trust from Palestinians towards actors such as the IDF for them to live under their rule - there won’t be the necessary trust of Israelis towards actors auch as Hamas for them to live under their rule.

Who said anything about either of that? In the event of a one-state solution, military apparatuses on both sides should be dismantled, in the same way militias stopped operating in post-Troubles Ireland.

But Pakistan shouldn’t be taken at its word.

Yeah I agree.

Not only that, Azhar gave a speech there after being reported missing for two years on, again, Nov. 30 2024, in Muridke.

Yeah that’s circumstantial evidence, which makes it slightly more likely but doesn’t prove that the camp was active in 2024.

Otherwise, why would those three LeT members die, if it was only civilian infrastructure?

Do you have a source for the claim that three LeT members died? Because the reporting I found said they were JuD members who lead prayers and acted as caretakers for the mosque, in which case that’s your answer for why they died in the strike. Also, if they were indeed LeT members, maybe because they were there for any other reason? I mean it has a mosque and a madrasa, places Muslims would want to go to for reasons other than to attack India.

Why would Rauf lead the funeral at that camp, record it and upload it, if that very location did not have any terrorists?

Why not? I’m not sure what exactly you wanted to happen here.

Why would Azhar feel secured enough to be right there and give a speech and record it, making it available to any journalist with an internet connection, in full view of his location?

Because he was confident nobody would turn him in? I don’t see the connection between this and Muridke being active.

Everything you outlined here is, as I said, vaguely related circumstantial evidence that only serves as evidence if you’re already convinced Muridke was being used as a terrorist camp. You still need cold, hard evidence here, and I see none.

Would Egyptians themselves support the genocide like we know most Israelis do?

Absolutely not, but Egypt the state is still very much in bed with Israel. Also do you have a source for US support for the coup?

There were several points you straight up ignored.

Yeah, because they’re all from before 2019 and therefore don’t counter the Pakistani government’s claim that they took over the camp in 2019.

Forgive me if I, or even academics like the ones above are sceptical of Pakistan’s claims of taking over that mosque

Fair enough, but I expect more than skepticism as justification for bombing what is ostensibly civilian infrastructure, and from what I know if India has evidence it remained in use as a terror camp after 2019 they haven’t provided it.

Edit: I didn’t directly respond to your points this time either because while they do prove the Pakistani army is in bed with terrorists, they’re not proof that this particular camp is being used by terrorists. Civilian infrastructure (or what is claimed to be civilian infrastructure) shouldn’t be bombed based on vaguely related circumstantial evidence and vibes.

So… uh… the mosque that was attacked was taken over by the government in 2019. There’s no reason to believe that the continuity you’re implying between its use in 2008 and 2025 exists.

This wasn’t a random mosque. It clearly had links to a terrorist organisation. The interviewees claim the place wasn’t tied to terrorism, but I am not convinced.

Read the article again. It was taken over by the government in 2019. The guy who founded JuD was, again as stated in the article, arrested in 2019 and imprisoned for financing terrorism.

The interviewees claim the place wasn’t tied to terrorism, but I am not convinced.

So you simply want to believe that the mosque was used by terrorists.

Not exactly ironic; Egypt waged a few flashy wars against Israel but we’ve been kowtowing to them for at least two decades. Egypt is the Arab state most complicit in Israel’s atrocities against Palestinians.

Many of the mosques in Pakistan are little more than extremist training camps and arguably have little to do with Islam.

Got a source for that? Because according to Pakistan 31 civilians, including at least two children, were killed in the strike, and while I’m not one to take belligerents’ words at face value these numbers are hard to fake.

Pakistan is a nation of terrorists, which is why they hid bin ladin. They get what they deserve.

-Them. Do you get what I mean? Whatever problems Pakistan may have—and however democratic India might be—doesn’t excuse lobbing rockets at mosques. Also what’s that about them being pro-terrorism?

You’ve been spewing hindutva shit throughout this thread so if you claim to not be a Hindu nationalist then stop carrying water for fascists. You sound like Zionists trying to “prove” that Israel should be allowed to genocide Gazans.