You criticise Israel for being a Jewish state for Jews, while Hamas isn’t aiming for a secular state for all religions but a Muslim state for Muslims.
Hamas could be literally the devil and that wouldn’t excuse a single atrocity of the dozens Israel commits against Palestinians daily. So I’ll ask again: How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying? And also, Hamas has already accepted a two state solution and entered multiple agreements with Israel to that effect that Israel then proceeded to completely shit on. And let’s not forget that Christians get to live peacefully in Gaza, so clearly it’s not a Muslim state for Muslims.
That’s not better. And following the partition, not only where Muslims expelled from Israeli parts, but also Jews from Palestinian parts.
Yeah so? How does that in any way excuse what Israel is doing? You keep presenting the same false dichotomy and refusing to acknowledge other options, which by the way isn’t good faith argument.
Except it is. There is no trust in the other side, so no willingness to do the first step.
Are you fucking kidding me? Hamas entered three ceasefire agreements with Israel aiming to end the Gaza side of the conflict that Israel almost immediately reneged on. We’ve literally seen this happen three months ago what are you even talking about? Also, Hamas and PA attempted to reunite and negotiate for peace and Israel sabotaged that until it failed. Palestinians have been calling for peace for decades and been fought by Israel every step of the way.
The problem is that the Arabs/Palestinians didn’t want to take part in the partition plan and accept the existence of Israel.
Are you not reading what I’m saying or are you intentionally ignoring everything that doesn’t align with your conclusions? Palestinians and Arabs had their own counterproposal (what we now call the one state solution) that Zionists refused because then they wouldn’t be able to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Partition had always been a prelude to Zionist conquest of all of Palestine.
In invading Israel from all sides the moment it was founded in '48
Gee, I wonder why. Certainly not because they kept doing shit like this. Did you want the Arab states to ignore the ethnic cleansing happening right on their doorstep? Are you against Europe helping Ukraine defend against Russia too?
and subsequently for a long time refusing to accept the mere existence of Israel,
You do realize Israel kept systematically dispossession Palestinians within its borders for 20 years after its founding right? Again, why the fuck would they accept Israel’s existence when Israel clearly wanted its existence to be synonymous with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
A Palestine with a leader who clearly accepts the existence of Israel and their common borders, and who puts an end to any conquering aspirations and puts the priorities on peace and establishment of a proper Palestinian state would do wonders for the Palestinian cause.
You mean… Yasser Arafat? Mahmoud Abbas? We already know how Israel treats peaceful leaders.
Hamas doesn’t.
Hamas has clearly accepted a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders in their charter. And again you didn’t respond to my fucking point. If you’ll keep deflecting just say so so I can go do something better with my life. I said: Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine? Then you went on a diatribe about the evil Arabs refusing to accept Israel’s Apartheid and ethnic cleansing-riddled existence.
Who says that?
Literally you. Your whole argument is that western powers have to keep supporting Israel even through its genocide until Palestine demonstrates sufficient dedication to peace (that they already have). Clearly you believe preventing imaginary Palestinian reprisal to be more important than stopping the actual genocide happening right now.
Hamas could be literally the devil and that wouldn’t excuse a single atrocity of the dozens Israel commits against Palestinians daily.
I don’t say it does. I’m just trying to make you understand why Israel is still getting support (not because they like the way Israel is waging it’s war, but because Israel is facing the threat of annihilation, e.g. by Hamas).
And let’s not forget that Christians get to live peacefully in Gaza, so clearly it’s not a Muslim state for Muslims.
I think you know exactly what I mean. As it also won’t be enough for you that Christians can live peacefully in Israel…
How does that in any way excuse what Israel is doing?
It doesn’t. It only hampers Palestinians in getting international support.
Partition had always been a prelude to Zionist conquest of all of Palestine.
Your interpretation. Especially since it wasn’t Israel that invaded it’s neighbours after being founded but the other way round. The Arab States lost a war they started themselves. Nevertheless, partition has been internationally agreed upon and it won’t disappear. A peace has to acknowledge this, an entity still dreaming of conquering everything will not be able to succeed. On both sides.
Certainly not because they kept doing shit like this.
Again, we can exchange links to massacres each supporting our argument all day long and won’t get anywhere. You might for example check out what happend to the Jewish population in Gaza in the late 20s. Fighting has been going on there for a very very long time and I don’t think anyone can reasonably pinpoint which side is to blame!
Did you want the Arab states to ignore the ethnic cleansing happening right on their doorstep?
Starting (and losing!) that war has lost them a ton of land and pride. I don’t really think it was worth it - as no violence in that conflict was worth it in the end.
Then you went on a diatribe about the evil Arabs refusing to accept Israel’s Apartheid and ethnic cleansing-riddled existence.
You might not agree with what I’m saying. But at least you should be open to listen to it. I didn’t say anything about “evil Arabs”. I don’t think they’re evil. But I also don’t think the Arab side did not contribute to this conflict as a whole by their own actions. Now, to be perfectly clear, that doesn’t excuse the way Israel is waging this war right now! But as a whole, it isn’t as black and white as you’re trying to make it look.
Your whole argument is that western powers have to keep supporting Israel even through its genocide until Palestine demonstrates sufficient dedication to peace (that they already have).
No. My argument is that western powers will realistically keep on supporting Israel as long as there are players in the region that want to destroy it. If you and I agree with that or not. And I see Hamas as one of those players. If you want to keep the support to end, i.a. Hamas (or their main goal) has to disappear.
Okay I said clearly that Hamas entered three permanent ceasefire agreements with Israel that Israel then proceeded to break. If you care to have an honest conversation you should respond (and should have responded) to that.
Hamas could be literally the devil and that wouldn’t excuse a single atrocity of the dozens Israel commits against Palestinians daily. So I’ll ask again: How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying? And also, Hamas has already accepted a two state solution and entered multiple agreements with Israel to that effect that Israel then proceeded to completely shit on. And let’s not forget that Christians get to live peacefully in Gaza, so clearly it’s not a Muslim state for Muslims.
Yeah so? How does that in any way excuse what Israel is doing? You keep presenting the same false dichotomy and refusing to acknowledge other options, which by the way isn’t good faith argument.
Are you fucking kidding me? Hamas entered three ceasefire agreements with Israel aiming to end the Gaza side of the conflict that Israel almost immediately reneged on. We’ve literally seen this happen three months ago what are you even talking about? Also, Hamas and PA attempted to reunite and negotiate for peace and Israel sabotaged that until it failed. Palestinians have been calling for peace for decades and been fought by Israel every step of the way.
Are you not reading what I’m saying or are you intentionally ignoring everything that doesn’t align with your conclusions? Palestinians and Arabs had their own counterproposal (what we now call the one state solution) that Zionists refused because then they wouldn’t be able to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Partition had always been a prelude to Zionist conquest of all of Palestine.
Gee, I wonder why. Certainly not because they kept doing shit like this. Did you want the Arab states to ignore the ethnic cleansing happening right on their doorstep? Are you against Europe helping Ukraine defend against Russia too?
You do realize Israel kept systematically dispossession Palestinians within its borders for 20 years after its founding right? Again, why the fuck would they accept Israel’s existence when Israel clearly wanted its existence to be synonymous with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
You mean… Yasser Arafat? Mahmoud Abbas? We already know how Israel treats peaceful leaders.
Hamas has clearly accepted a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders in their charter. And again you didn’t respond to my fucking point. If you’ll keep deflecting just say so so I can go do something better with my life. I said: Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine? Then you went on a diatribe about the evil Arabs refusing to accept Israel’s Apartheid and ethnic cleansing-riddled existence.
Literally you. Your whole argument is that western powers have to keep supporting Israel even through its genocide until Palestine demonstrates sufficient dedication to peace (that they already have). Clearly you believe preventing imaginary Palestinian reprisal to be more important than stopping the actual genocide happening right now.
I don’t say it does. I’m just trying to make you understand why Israel is still getting support (not because they like the way Israel is waging it’s war, but because Israel is facing the threat of annihilation, e.g. by Hamas).
I think you know exactly what I mean. As it also won’t be enough for you that Christians can live peacefully in Israel…
It doesn’t. It only hampers Palestinians in getting international support.
Your interpretation. Especially since it wasn’t Israel that invaded it’s neighbours after being founded but the other way round. The Arab States lost a war they started themselves. Nevertheless, partition has been internationally agreed upon and it won’t disappear. A peace has to acknowledge this, an entity still dreaming of conquering everything will not be able to succeed. On both sides.
Again, we can exchange links to massacres each supporting our argument all day long and won’t get anywhere. You might for example check out what happend to the Jewish population in Gaza in the late 20s. Fighting has been going on there for a very very long time and I don’t think anyone can reasonably pinpoint which side is to blame!
Starting (and losing!) that war has lost them a ton of land and pride. I don’t really think it was worth it - as no violence in that conflict was worth it in the end.
You might not agree with what I’m saying. But at least you should be open to listen to it. I didn’t say anything about “evil Arabs”. I don’t think they’re evil. But I also don’t think the Arab side did not contribute to this conflict as a whole by their own actions. Now, to be perfectly clear, that doesn’t excuse the way Israel is waging this war right now! But as a whole, it isn’t as black and white as you’re trying to make it look.
No. My argument is that western powers will realistically keep on supporting Israel as long as there are players in the region that want to destroy it. If you and I agree with that or not. And I see Hamas as one of those players. If you want to keep the support to end, i.a. Hamas (or their main goal) has to disappear.
Okay I said clearly that Hamas entered three permanent ceasefire agreements with Israel that Israel then proceeded to break. If you care to have an honest conversation you should respond (and should have responded) to that.