Not ruling Gaza has never been a deal-breaker for them.
No, but disarming has. Giving up their rule in Gaza is one thing, but they’d also need to agree on disarming and effectively dissolving themselves. So far, I can’t see them make that step.
If the injustices cease groups such as Hamas will have no way of selling themselves to the people
The problem is that it already is an injustice for too many people on both sides that the other ones should have their own state. Here, the injustice for Hamas is the mere existence of Israel. The Good Friday Agreement includes both sides to acknowledge the other side, this would have to happen here as well.
Giving up their rule in Gaza is one thing, but they’d also need to agree on disarming and effectively dissolving themselves. So far, I can’t see them make that step.
Because Israel hasn’t engaged in good faith negotiations in almost 30 years? If anything why do you expect them to make that step now? I mean they agreed to not rebuild militarily in the ceasefire Israel then proceeded to completely shit on so it’s not like they’re vehemently opposed to the idea, but there needs to be a good faith effort from, well, anyone.
effectively dissolving themselves.
True for the military branch, but remember that Hamas is also a political party. There’s no reason they should be disallowed from running for elections in a post-conflict Palestine.
Here, the injustice for Hamas is the mere existence of Israel.
You say “mere” but the existence of Israel as a Jewish state built by Jews for Jews is already full of injustices. I mean their constitution literally denies the Palestinian people the right to self-determination. Israel, if it’s not dissolved entirely, needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Oh, and also: Hamas accepts a two-state solution as stated in their charter, and has entered into multiple agreements with Israel to that effect that Israel predictably proceeded to completely shit on. That’s the most you can expect Hamas to let up on their ideological program before real good faith negotiations start.
The point I want to make is: Everything you want should come as part of negotiations between the two sides, not as a mere prelude to negotiations. It takes two to tango here, because I certainly haven’t seen Israel accept the idea of a two-state solution.
PS: I’m slightly self-censoring because of rule 4.
If anything why do you expect them to make that step now?
I don’t expect them to make that step. But there must be true willingness apparent to take that step, should this conflict ever come to an end.
there needs to be a good faith effort from, well, anyone.
True!
There’s no reason they should be disallowed from running for elections in a post-conflict Palestine.
If they give up their current main goal, the destruction of Israel, yes.
Israel as a Jewish state built by Jews for Jews is already full of injustices
How much Jewish life is there left in Palestine or even Gaza? Is Gaza, run by the Hamas, a secular entity open to all religions, protecting also their rights?
I mean, I completely agree with you concerning equal rights for all regions, but this shouldn’t only apply to one side of the conflict. As far as I can tell, the problem of Hamas with Israel is not that a minority religion is not granted full rights along the states “main religion”, it is only that Judaism is the main religion and not Islam. That’s however no basis for a solution, only changing to opposite signs.
Everything you want should come as part of negotiations between the two sides, not as a mere prelude to negotiations. It takes two to tango here
Absolutely agree! However, speaking of pressure to be exerted by supporting nations on Israel, there has to be at least a perspective of achieving something positive with that and not just switching the upper hand to the other radical side. Then, there’s not only Hamas but also Iran that is set to destroy Israel. The potential pressure hence is also limited by the fact that Israel still needs to be able to fully deter this regime. And that’s where it becomes completely complicated…
How much Jewish life is there left in Palestine or even Gaza?
How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying?
As far as I can tell, the problem of Hamas with Israel is not that a minority religion is not granted full rights along the states “main religion”, it is only that Judaism is the main religion and not Islam.
You should consume less Israeli propaganda. Hamas’s problem with Israel is that Israel occupies Palestinian land and oppresses the Palestinian people. Do you grasp the scale of injustices Israel has subjected Palestinians to for almost eighty years by now? There’s no shortage of problems Palestinians of all shapes and stripes have with Israel.
Absolutely agree! However, speaking of pressure to be exerted by supporting nations on Israel, there has to be at least a perspective of achieving something positive with that and not just switching the upper hand to the other radical side.
So fucking do that. It’s not that complicated.
The potential pressure hence is also limited by the fact that Israel still needs to be able to fully deter this regime. And that’s where it becomes completely complicated.
Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine? Why does Palestine need to be subjected to genocide until some perfect solution the international community clearly doesn’t care for happens? If Israel doesn’t want peace, why should they be supported in war? Clearly the worst case scenario of genocide is already happening. Your point only makes sense if you assume that Jewish lives are more worthy of protection than Palestinian or Iranian lives (Israel has been trying to drag America into a war against Iran for over a year).
How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying?
You criticise Israel for being a Jewish state for Jews, while Hamas isn’t aiming for a secular state for all religions but a Muslim state for Muslims. That’s not better. And following the partition, not only where Muslims expelled from Israeli parts, but also Jews from Palestinian parts.
There’s no shortage of problems Palestinians of all shapes and stripes have with Israel.
How does that affect the fact that Hamas is aiming for a Muslim state, the only difference to Israel being which religion discriminates which? Do you expect only one side to end discrimination?
So fucking do that. It’s not that complicated.
Except it is. There is no trust in the other side, so no willingness to do the first step.
Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine?
Who says that?
The problem is that the Arabs/Palestinians didn’t want to take part in the partition plan and accept the existence of Israel. In invading Israel from all sides the moment it was founded in '48 and subsequently for a long time refusing to accept the mere existence of Israel, the Arab states achieved to be perceived as ongoing threats to Israel security and as the aggressors. That’s where the ongoing support for Israel is coming from.
It didn’t help the Palestinian cause either that they fully refused the partition plan and the idea of two states, given that Israel exists, hence making them look like not wanting to be part of a solution.
A Palestine with a leader who clearly accepts the existence of Israel and their common borders, and who puts an end to any conquering aspirations and puts the priorities on peace and establishment of a proper Palestinian state would do wonders for the Palestinian cause. Hamas doesn’t.
You criticise Israel for being a Jewish state for Jews, while Hamas isn’t aiming for a secular state for all religions but a Muslim state for Muslims.
Hamas could be literally the devil and that wouldn’t excuse a single atrocity of the dozens Israel commits against Palestinians daily. So I’ll ask again: How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying? And also, Hamas has already accepted a two state solution and entered multiple agreements with Israel to that effect that Israel then proceeded to completely shit on. And let’s not forget that Christians get to live peacefully in Gaza, so clearly it’s not a Muslim state for Muslims.
That’s not better. And following the partition, not only where Muslims expelled from Israeli parts, but also Jews from Palestinian parts.
Yeah so? How does that in any way excuse what Israel is doing? You keep presenting the same false dichotomy and refusing to acknowledge other options, which by the way isn’t good faith argument.
Except it is. There is no trust in the other side, so no willingness to do the first step.
Are you fucking kidding me? Hamas entered three ceasefire agreements with Israel aiming to end the Gaza side of the conflict that Israel almost immediately reneged on. We’ve literally seen this happen three months ago what are you even talking about? Also, Hamas and PA attempted to reunite and negotiate for peace and Israel sabotaged that until it failed. Palestinians have been calling for peace for decades and been fought by Israel every step of the way.
The problem is that the Arabs/Palestinians didn’t want to take part in the partition plan and accept the existence of Israel.
Are you not reading what I’m saying or are you intentionally ignoring everything that doesn’t align with your conclusions? Palestinians and Arabs had their own counterproposal (what we now call the one state solution) that Zionists refused because then they wouldn’t be able to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Partition had always been a prelude to Zionist conquest of all of Palestine.
In invading Israel from all sides the moment it was founded in '48
Gee, I wonder why. Certainly not because they kept doing shit like this. Did you want the Arab states to ignore the ethnic cleansing happening right on their doorstep? Are you against Europe helping Ukraine defend against Russia too?
and subsequently for a long time refusing to accept the mere existence of Israel,
You do realize Israel kept systematically dispossession Palestinians within its borders for 20 years after its founding right? Again, why the fuck would they accept Israel’s existence when Israel clearly wanted its existence to be synonymous with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
A Palestine with a leader who clearly accepts the existence of Israel and their common borders, and who puts an end to any conquering aspirations and puts the priorities on peace and establishment of a proper Palestinian state would do wonders for the Palestinian cause.
You mean… Yasser Arafat? Mahmoud Abbas? We already know how Israel treats peaceful leaders.
Hamas doesn’t.
Hamas has clearly accepted a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders in their charter. And again you didn’t respond to my fucking point. If you’ll keep deflecting just say so so I can go do something better with my life. I said: Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine? Then you went on a diatribe about the evil Arabs refusing to accept Israel’s Apartheid and ethnic cleansing-riddled existence.
Who says that?
Literally you. Your whole argument is that western powers have to keep supporting Israel even through its genocide until Palestine demonstrates sufficient dedication to peace (that they already have). Clearly you believe preventing imaginary Palestinian reprisal to be more important than stopping the actual genocide happening right now.
Hamas could be literally the devil and that wouldn’t excuse a single atrocity of the dozens Israel commits against Palestinians daily.
I don’t say it does. I’m just trying to make you understand why Israel is still getting support (not because they like the way Israel is waging it’s war, but because Israel is facing the threat of annihilation, e.g. by Hamas).
And let’s not forget that Christians get to live peacefully in Gaza, so clearly it’s not a Muslim state for Muslims.
I think you know exactly what I mean. As it also won’t be enough for you that Christians can live peacefully in Israel…
How does that in any way excuse what Israel is doing?
It doesn’t. It only hampers Palestinians in getting international support.
Partition had always been a prelude to Zionist conquest of all of Palestine.
Your interpretation. Especially since it wasn’t Israel that invaded it’s neighbours after being founded but the other way round. The Arab States lost a war they started themselves. Nevertheless, partition has been internationally agreed upon and it won’t disappear. A peace has to acknowledge this, an entity still dreaming of conquering everything will not be able to succeed. On both sides.
Certainly not because they kept doing shit like this.
Again, we can exchange links to massacres each supporting our argument all day long and won’t get anywhere. You might for example check out what happend to the Jewish population in Gaza in the late 20s. Fighting has been going on there for a very very long time and I don’t think anyone can reasonably pinpoint which side is to blame!
Did you want the Arab states to ignore the ethnic cleansing happening right on their doorstep?
Starting (and losing!) that war has lost them a ton of land and pride. I don’t really think it was worth it - as no violence in that conflict was worth it in the end.
Then you went on a diatribe about the evil Arabs refusing to accept Israel’s Apartheid and ethnic cleansing-riddled existence.
You might not agree with what I’m saying. But at least you should be open to listen to it. I didn’t say anything about “evil Arabs”. I don’t think they’re evil. But I also don’t think the Arab side did not contribute to this conflict as a whole by their own actions. Now, to be perfectly clear, that doesn’t excuse the way Israel is waging this war right now! But as a whole, it isn’t as black and white as you’re trying to make it look.
Your whole argument is that western powers have to keep supporting Israel even through its genocide until Palestine demonstrates sufficient dedication to peace (that they already have).
No. My argument is that western powers will realistically keep on supporting Israel as long as there are players in the region that want to destroy it. If you and I agree with that or not. And I see Hamas as one of those players. If you want to keep the support to end, i.a. Hamas (or their main goal) has to disappear.
Okay I said clearly that Hamas entered three permanent ceasefire agreements with Israel that Israel then proceeded to break. If you care to have an honest conversation you should respond (and should have responded) to that.
No, but disarming has. Giving up their rule in Gaza is one thing, but they’d also need to agree on disarming and effectively dissolving themselves. So far, I can’t see them make that step.
The problem is that it already is an injustice for too many people on both sides that the other ones should have their own state. Here, the injustice for Hamas is the mere existence of Israel. The Good Friday Agreement includes both sides to acknowledge the other side, this would have to happen here as well.
Because Israel hasn’t engaged in good faith negotiations in almost 30 years? If anything why do you expect them to make that step now? I mean they agreed to not rebuild militarily in the ceasefire Israel then proceeded to completely shit on so it’s not like they’re vehemently opposed to the idea, but there needs to be a good faith effort from, well, anyone.
True for the military branch, but remember that Hamas is also a political party. There’s no reason they should be disallowed from running for elections in a post-conflict Palestine.
You say “mere” but the existence of Israel as a Jewish state built by Jews for Jews is already full of injustices. I mean their constitution literally denies the Palestinian people the right to self-determination. Israel, if it’s not dissolved entirely, needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Oh, and also: Hamas accepts a two-state solution as stated in their charter, and has entered into multiple agreements with Israel to that effect that Israel predictably proceeded to completely shit on. That’s the most you can expect Hamas to let up on their ideological program before real good faith negotiations start.
The point I want to make is: Everything you want should come as part of negotiations between the two sides, not as a mere prelude to negotiations. It takes two to tango here, because I certainly haven’t seen Israel accept the idea of a two-state solution.
PS: I’m slightly self-censoring because of rule 4.
I don’t expect them to make that step. But there must be true willingness apparent to take that step, should this conflict ever come to an end.
True!
If they give up their current main goal, the destruction of Israel, yes.
How much Jewish life is there left in Palestine or even Gaza? Is Gaza, run by the Hamas, a secular entity open to all religions, protecting also their rights?
I mean, I completely agree with you concerning equal rights for all regions, but this shouldn’t only apply to one side of the conflict. As far as I can tell, the problem of Hamas with Israel is not that a minority religion is not granted full rights along the states “main religion”, it is only that Judaism is the main religion and not Islam. That’s however no basis for a solution, only changing to opposite signs.
Absolutely agree! However, speaking of pressure to be exerted by supporting nations on Israel, there has to be at least a perspective of achieving something positive with that and not just switching the upper hand to the other radical side. Then, there’s not only Hamas but also Iran that is set to destroy Israel. The potential pressure hence is also limited by the fact that Israel still needs to be able to fully deter this regime. And that’s where it becomes completely complicated…
How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying?
You should consume less Israeli propaganda. Hamas’s problem with Israel is that Israel occupies Palestinian land and oppresses the Palestinian people. Do you grasp the scale of injustices Israel has subjected Palestinians to for almost eighty years by now? There’s no shortage of problems Palestinians of all shapes and stripes have with Israel.
So fucking do that. It’s not that complicated.
Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine? Why does Palestine need to be subjected to genocide until some perfect solution the international community clearly doesn’t care for happens? If Israel doesn’t want peace, why should they be supported in war? Clearly the worst case scenario of genocide is already happening. Your point only makes sense if you assume that Jewish lives are more worthy of protection than Palestinian or Iranian lives (Israel has been trying to drag America into a war against Iran for over a year).
You criticise Israel for being a Jewish state for Jews, while Hamas isn’t aiming for a secular state for all religions but a Muslim state for Muslims. That’s not better. And following the partition, not only where Muslims expelled from Israeli parts, but also Jews from Palestinian parts.
How does that affect the fact that Hamas is aiming for a Muslim state, the only difference to Israel being which religion discriminates which? Do you expect only one side to end discrimination?
Except it is. There is no trust in the other side, so no willingness to do the first step.
Who says that?
The problem is that the Arabs/Palestinians didn’t want to take part in the partition plan and accept the existence of Israel. In invading Israel from all sides the moment it was founded in '48 and subsequently for a long time refusing to accept the mere existence of Israel, the Arab states achieved to be perceived as ongoing threats to Israel security and as the aggressors. That’s where the ongoing support for Israel is coming from.
It didn’t help the Palestinian cause either that they fully refused the partition plan and the idea of two states, given that Israel exists, hence making them look like not wanting to be part of a solution.
A Palestine with a leader who clearly accepts the existence of Israel and their common borders, and who puts an end to any conquering aspirations and puts the priorities on peace and establishment of a proper Palestinian state would do wonders for the Palestinian cause. Hamas doesn’t.
Hamas could be literally the devil and that wouldn’t excuse a single atrocity of the dozens Israel commits against Palestinians daily. So I’ll ask again: How in the actual fuck is that relevant to what I was saying? And also, Hamas has already accepted a two state solution and entered multiple agreements with Israel to that effect that Israel then proceeded to completely shit on. And let’s not forget that Christians get to live peacefully in Gaza, so clearly it’s not a Muslim state for Muslims.
Yeah so? How does that in any way excuse what Israel is doing? You keep presenting the same false dichotomy and refusing to acknowledge other options, which by the way isn’t good faith argument.
Are you fucking kidding me? Hamas entered three ceasefire agreements with Israel aiming to end the Gaza side of the conflict that Israel almost immediately reneged on. We’ve literally seen this happen three months ago what are you even talking about? Also, Hamas and PA attempted to reunite and negotiate for peace and Israel sabotaged that until it failed. Palestinians have been calling for peace for decades and been fought by Israel every step of the way.
Are you not reading what I’m saying or are you intentionally ignoring everything that doesn’t align with your conclusions? Palestinians and Arabs had their own counterproposal (what we now call the one state solution) that Zionists refused because then they wouldn’t be able to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Partition had always been a prelude to Zionist conquest of all of Palestine.
Gee, I wonder why. Certainly not because they kept doing shit like this. Did you want the Arab states to ignore the ethnic cleansing happening right on their doorstep? Are you against Europe helping Ukraine defend against Russia too?
You do realize Israel kept systematically dispossession Palestinians within its borders for 20 years after its founding right? Again, why the fuck would they accept Israel’s existence when Israel clearly wanted its existence to be synonymous with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
You mean… Yasser Arafat? Mahmoud Abbas? We already know how Israel treats peaceful leaders.
Hamas has clearly accepted a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders in their charter. And again you didn’t respond to my fucking point. If you’ll keep deflecting just say so so I can go do something better with my life. I said: Why does Israel deserve protection and not Palestine? Then you went on a diatribe about the evil Arabs refusing to accept Israel’s Apartheid and ethnic cleansing-riddled existence.
Literally you. Your whole argument is that western powers have to keep supporting Israel even through its genocide until Palestine demonstrates sufficient dedication to peace (that they already have). Clearly you believe preventing imaginary Palestinian reprisal to be more important than stopping the actual genocide happening right now.
I don’t say it does. I’m just trying to make you understand why Israel is still getting support (not because they like the way Israel is waging it’s war, but because Israel is facing the threat of annihilation, e.g. by Hamas).
I think you know exactly what I mean. As it also won’t be enough for you that Christians can live peacefully in Israel…
It doesn’t. It only hampers Palestinians in getting international support.
Your interpretation. Especially since it wasn’t Israel that invaded it’s neighbours after being founded but the other way round. The Arab States lost a war they started themselves. Nevertheless, partition has been internationally agreed upon and it won’t disappear. A peace has to acknowledge this, an entity still dreaming of conquering everything will not be able to succeed. On both sides.
Again, we can exchange links to massacres each supporting our argument all day long and won’t get anywhere. You might for example check out what happend to the Jewish population in Gaza in the late 20s. Fighting has been going on there for a very very long time and I don’t think anyone can reasonably pinpoint which side is to blame!
Starting (and losing!) that war has lost them a ton of land and pride. I don’t really think it was worth it - as no violence in that conflict was worth it in the end.
You might not agree with what I’m saying. But at least you should be open to listen to it. I didn’t say anything about “evil Arabs”. I don’t think they’re evil. But I also don’t think the Arab side did not contribute to this conflict as a whole by their own actions. Now, to be perfectly clear, that doesn’t excuse the way Israel is waging this war right now! But as a whole, it isn’t as black and white as you’re trying to make it look.
No. My argument is that western powers will realistically keep on supporting Israel as long as there are players in the region that want to destroy it. If you and I agree with that or not. And I see Hamas as one of those players. If you want to keep the support to end, i.a. Hamas (or their main goal) has to disappear.
Okay I said clearly that Hamas entered three permanent ceasefire agreements with Israel that Israel then proceeded to break. If you care to have an honest conversation you should respond (and should have responded) to that.